{"argument_date":"2023-04-24T00:00:00Z","arguments":[{"argument_date":"2023-04-24T00:00:00Z","heading":"What happened at the argument","official_detail_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2022","official_transcript_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","paragraphs":["Mr. Shah argued the question is whether Congress abrogated tribal immunity in the Bankruptcy Code.","Mr. Shah stated that reading the phrase to include tribes is not wholly unreasonable.","Mr. Raynor argued the Code unequivocally abrogates the immunity of all governments, including tribes.","Mr. Rapawy argued tribes are governments because they exercise governmental authority and functions."],"reargument":false,"sequence":1,"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 21-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 21-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 39-45","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 39-45"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 51-11","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 51-11"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 25-29","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 25-29"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 35-37","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 35-37"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 41-43","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 41-43"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 53-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 53-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 39, lines 37-9","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 39, lines 37-9"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 11-21","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 11-21"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 23-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 23-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 19-17","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 19-17"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 67, lines 37-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 67, lines 37-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 23-27","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 23-27"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 29-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 29-15"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 7-19","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 7-19"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 25-29","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 25-29"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 71, lines 17-19","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 71, lines 17-19"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 15-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 15-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 33-39","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 33-39"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 21-25","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 21-25"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 9-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 9-15"}]}],"caption":"Lac du Flambeau Band v. Coughlin","case_history":[{"changed_at":"2026-08-29T20:06:16.437865Z","explanation":"An official oral-argument transcript was verified.","status":"argued"},{"changed_at":"2026-08-29T20:06:16.468555Z","explanation":"An official oral-argument transcript was verified.","status":"argued"}],"case_status":"argued","dek":"The Lac du Flambeau Band seeks to keep its immunity from bankruptcy damages claims. The opposing side argues the statute removes that protection.","dek_sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 39, lines 37-9","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 39, lines 37-9"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 23-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 23-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 19-17","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 19-17"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 67, lines 37-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 67, lines 37-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 29-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 29-15"}],"dispositions":[],"latest_court_document_date":"2023-04-24T00:00:00Z","maturity":"official_transcript","official_detail_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2022","official_disposition_urls":[],"official_docket_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/22-227.html","primary_docket":"22-227","revisions":[{"correction_note":"Rewritten to the concise citizen-facing editorial standard.","created_at":"2026-08-30T16:23:13.324731Z","maturity":"official_transcript","revision_number":1},{"correction_note":"Migrated to the dated official Court activity contract without model use.","created_at":"2026-09-05T03:22:24Z","maturity":"official_transcript","revision_number":2}],"schema_version":"1.1","sections":[{"heading":"What this case is about","paragraphs":["The case tests whether federal bankruptcy law overrides the legal shield that protects Indian tribes from certain lawsuits."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 39, lines 37-9","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 39, lines 37-9"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 23-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 23-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 19-17","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 19-17"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 67, lines 37-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 67, lines 37-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 29-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 29-15"}]},{"heading":"How the case got here","paragraphs":["The Supreme Court heard oral argument in this case on April 24, 2023."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 11-21","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 11-21"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 71, lines 17-19","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 71, lines 17-19"}]},{"heading":"What each side wants","paragraphs":["The Lac du Flambeau Band wants the Court to preserve its sovereign immunity from bankruptcy damages actions.","The opposing side wants the Court to rule that the Bankruptcy Code removes tribal sovereign immunity."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 39, lines 37-9","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 39, lines 37-9"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 23-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 23-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 19-17","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 19-17"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 67, lines 37-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 67, lines 37-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 29-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 29-15"}]},{"heading":"What each side says","paragraphs":["The Band argues the statute does not clearly target Indian tribes for immunity removal.","The opposing side argues the phrase foreign or domestic government includes all governments, including tribes."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 39, lines 37-9","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 39, lines 37-9"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 23-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 23-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 19-17","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 19-17"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 67, lines 37-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 67, lines 37-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 29-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 29-15"}]},{"heading":"What the justices asked","paragraphs":["Justice Thomas asked if Congress must explicitly name tribes to remove their immunity.","Justice Barrett asked if the phrase every government would abrogate state sovereign immunity."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 21-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 21-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 39-45","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 39-45"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 51-11","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 51-11"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 25-29","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 25-29"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 35-37","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 35-37"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 41-43","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 41-43"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 53-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 53-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 23-27","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 23-27"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 7-19","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 7-19"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 25-29","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 25-29"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 71, lines 17-19","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 71, lines 17-19"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 15-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 15-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 33-39","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 33-39"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 21-25","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 21-25"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 9-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 9-15"}]},{"heading":"Why it matters","paragraphs":["This case defines the legal boundary between tribal sovereignty and federal bankruptcy law. It determines whether tribes face financial liability in bankruptcy proceedings. The outcome shapes the balance of power between tribal nations and federal courts."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 39, lines 37-9","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 39, lines 37-9"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 23-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 23-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 19-17","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 19-17"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 67, lines 37-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 67, lines 37-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 29-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 29-15"}]},{"heading":"What happens next","paragraphs":["This article currently covers the argument record. Use the official docket link for later case activity."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 21-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 21-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 39-45","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 39-45"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 51-11","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 51-11"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 25-29","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 25-29"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 35-37","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 35-37"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 41-43","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 41-43"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 12, lines 53-1","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 12, lines 53-1"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 11-21","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 11-21"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 23-27","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 23-27"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 7-19","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 7-19"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 25-29","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 25-29"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 71, lines 17-19","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 71, lines 17-19"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 15-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 15-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 33-39","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 33-39"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 21-25","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 21-25"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 9-15","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 9-15"}]}],"slug":"2022-22-227-lac-du-flambeau-band-v-coughlin","term":"2022","title":"Does the Bankruptcy Code strip Indian tribes of sovereign immunity?","title_sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 39, lines 37-9","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 39, lines 37-9"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 23-23","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2022/22-227_94l8.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 23-23"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 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