{"argument_date":"2020-01-13T00:00:00Z","arguments":[{"argument_date":"2020-01-13T00:00:00Z","heading":"What happened at the argument","official_detail_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2019","official_transcript_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","paragraphs":["Mr. Stris argued clients have equitable interests in trust assets.","Mr. Palmore stated no ERISA exception exists to Article III.","Mr. Joshi cited centuries of trust law supporting beneficiary suits.","Chief Justice Roberts questioned whether abstract losses constitute injury."],"reargument":false,"sequence":1,"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 10-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 10-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court 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file page 4, lines 24-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 24-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 6, lines 28-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 6, lines 28-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 30-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 30-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 69, lines 22-46","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 69, lines 22-46"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 32-38","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 32-38"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 50-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 50-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 70, lines 46-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 70, lines 46-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 73, lines 38-40","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 73, lines 38-40"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 44-12","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 44-12"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 16-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 16-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 30-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 30-32"}]}],"caption":"Thole v. U. S. Bank, N. A.","case_history":[{"changed_at":"2026-08-29T20:06:19.397755Z","explanation":"An official oral-argument transcript was verified.","status":"argued"},{"changed_at":"2026-08-29T20:06:19.404896Z","explanation":"An official oral-argument transcript was verified.","status":"argued"}],"case_status":"argued","dek":"the sides that brought the case claim trustees caused $750 million in losses. the opposing sides argue no direct injury occurred.","dek_sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 22, lines 50-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 22, lines 50-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 35, lines 16-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 35, lines 16-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 24-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 24-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 30-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 30-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 70, lines 46-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 70, lines 46-36"}],"dispositions":[],"latest_court_document_date":"2020-01-13T00:00:00Z","maturity":"official_transcript","official_detail_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2019","official_disposition_urls":[],"official_docket_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/17-1712.html","primary_docket":"17-1712","revisions":[{"correction_note":"Rewritten to the concise citizen-facing editorial standard.","created_at":"2026-08-30T17:36:36.933702Z","maturity":"official_transcript","revision_number":1},{"correction_note":"Migrated to the dated official Court activity contract without model use.","created_at":"2026-09-05T03:22:24Z","maturity":"official_transcript","revision_number":2}],"schema_version":"1.1","sections":[{"heading":"What this case is about","paragraphs":["This case tests Article III standing requirements for ERISA claims."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 22, lines 50-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 22, lines 50-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 35, lines 16-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 35, lines 16-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 24-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 24-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 30-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 30-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 70, lines 46-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 70, lines 46-36"}]},{"heading":"How the case got here","paragraphs":["The Supreme Court heard oral argument in this case on January 13, 2020."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 12-22","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 12-22"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 73, lines 38-40","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 73, lines 38-40"}]},{"heading":"What each side wants","paragraphs":["the sides that brought the case want to sue trustees for fiduciary breaches.","the opposing sides want dismissal for lack of standing."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 22, lines 50-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 22, lines 50-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 35, lines 16-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 35, lines 16-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 24-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 24-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 30-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 30-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 70, lines 46-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 70, lines 46-36"}]},{"heading":"What each side says","paragraphs":["the sides that brought the case argue beneficiaries hold equitable interests in trust assets.","the opposing sides argue plaintiffs must demonstrate tangible financial injury."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 22, lines 50-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 22, lines 50-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 35, lines 16-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 35, lines 16-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 24-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 24-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 30-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 30-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 70, lines 46-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 70, lines 46-36"}]},{"heading":"What the justices asked","paragraphs":["Justice Gorsuch asked if defined benefit plans change the analysis.","Chief Justice Roberts asked how abstract trust losses create injury."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 10-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 10-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 12-14","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 12-14"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 20-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 20-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 44-16","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 44-16"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 20-22","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 20-22"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 36-38","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 36-38"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 6, lines 28-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 6, lines 28-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 69, lines 22-46","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 69, lines 22-46"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 32-38","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 32-38"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 50-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 50-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 73, lines 38-40","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 73, lines 38-40"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 44-12","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 44-12"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 16-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 16-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 30-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 30-32"}]},{"heading":"Why it matters","paragraphs":["This dispute defines the scope of federal court jurisdiction for pension beneficiaries."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 22, lines 50-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 22, lines 50-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 35, lines 16-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 35, lines 16-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 24-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 24-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 30-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 30-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 70, lines 46-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 70, lines 46-36"}]},{"heading":"What happens next","paragraphs":["This article currently covers the argument record. Use the official docket link for later case activity."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 10-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 10-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 12-14","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 12-14"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 20-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 20-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 10, lines 44-16","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 10, lines 44-16"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 20-22","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 20-22"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 11, lines 36-38","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 11, lines 36-38"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 12-22","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 12-22"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 6, lines 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38-40","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 73, lines 38-40"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 44-12","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 44-12"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 16-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 16-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 30-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 30-32"}]}],"slug":"2019-17-1712-thole-v-u-s-bank-n-a","term":"2019","title":"Can pension beneficiaries sue trustees for fiduciary breaches without proving direct financial loss?","title_sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 22, lines 50-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 22, lines 50-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 35, lines 16-8","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 35, lines 16-8"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 24-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 24-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 68, lines 30-10","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 68, lines 30-10"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 70, lines 46-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2019/17-1712_3fb4.pdf","page_label":"file page 70, lines 46-36"}],"topics":[],"undated_disposition_date_fallback":null,"updated_at":"2026-09-05T03:22:24Z"}