{"argument_date":"2010-01-13T00:00:00Z","arguments":[{"argument_date":"2010-01-13T00:00:00Z","heading":"What happened at the argument","official_detail_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2009","official_transcript_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","paragraphs":["Mr. Russell argued that the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act does not allow ignorance of the law as a defense.","Mr. Coakley stated that the text of the statute is the starting point for discerning congressional intent.","Chief Justice Roberts questioned the function of the bona fide error clause if intentional is read broadly.","Justice Scalia focused on the definition of the word intentional as the central issue in the case."],"reargument":false,"sequence":1,"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 23, lines 4-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 23, lines 4-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 20-24","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 20-24"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 8-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 8-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 33, lines 20-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 33, lines 20-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 26-34","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 26-34"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 22-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 22-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 48-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 48-26"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 57, lines 28-30","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 57, lines 28-30"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 6, lines 14-52","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 6, lines 14-52"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 16-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 16-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 34-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 34-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 42-44","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 42-44"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 26-28","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 26-28"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 38-44","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 38-44"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 48-12","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 48-12"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 8-16","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 8-16"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 32-40","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 32-40"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 52-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 52-32"}]}],"caption":"Jerman v. Carlisle, McNellie, Rini, Kramer & Ulrich LPA","case_history":[{"changed_at":"2026-08-29T20:06:25.831543Z","explanation":"An official oral-argument transcript was verified.","status":"argued"},{"changed_at":"2026-08-29T20:06:25.856869Z","explanation":"An official oral-argument transcript was verified.","status":"argued"}],"case_status":"argued","dek":"The dispute centers on whether a debt collector commits a violation when it relies on a mistaken but reasonable interpretation of the law.","dek_sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 23, lines 4-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 23, lines 4-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 20-24","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 20-24"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 33, lines 20-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 33, lines 20-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 48-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 48-26"}],"dispositions":[],"latest_court_document_date":"2010-01-13T00:00:00Z","maturity":"official_transcript","official_detail_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2009","official_disposition_urls":[],"official_docket_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/08-1200.html","primary_docket":"08-1200","revisions":[{"correction_note":"Rewritten to the concise citizen-facing editorial standard.","created_at":"2026-08-31T01:40:48.116891Z","maturity":"official_transcript","revision_number":1},{"correction_note":"Migrated to the dated official Court activity contract without model use.","created_at":"2026-09-05T03:22:24Z","maturity":"official_transcript","revision_number":2}],"schema_version":"1.1","sections":[{"heading":"What this case is about","paragraphs":["The case tests the scope of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. the side that brought the case argues the law bans all violations, including honest mistakes. the opposing side argues the law targets only intentional misconduct. The Court must define the term intentional in this context."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 23, lines 4-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 23, lines 4-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 20-24","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 20-24"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 33, lines 20-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 33, lines 20-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 48-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 48-26"}]},{"heading":"How the case got here","paragraphs":["The Supreme Court heard oral argument in this case on January 13, 2010."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 8-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 8-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 57, lines 28-30","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 57, lines 28-30"}]},{"heading":"What each side wants","paragraphs":["the side that brought the case wants the Court to hold that any violation of the Act is actionable, regardless of the collector's intent.","the opposing side wants the Court to hold that the Act requires proof of intentional misconduct, excluding good-faith errors."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 23, lines 4-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 23, lines 4-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 20-24","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 20-24"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 33, lines 20-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 33, lines 20-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 48-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 48-26"}]},{"heading":"What each side says","paragraphs":["the side that brought the case argues that Congress rarely allows ignorance of the law as a defense to civil liability.","the opposing side argues that the statutory text and congressional intent require a finding of intentional conduct."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 23, lines 4-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 23, lines 4-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 20-24","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 20-24"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 33, lines 20-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 33, lines 20-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 48-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 48-26"}]},{"heading":"What the justices asked","paragraphs":["Chief Justice Roberts asked what work the phrase bona fide error does if intentional means what the side that brought the case says.","Justice Scalia asked whether litigation constitutes debt collection activity under the statute."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 26-34","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 26-34"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 22-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 22-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 57, lines 28-30","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 57, lines 28-30"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 6, lines 14-52","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 6, lines 14-52"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 16-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 16-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 34-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 34-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 42-44","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 42-44"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 26-28","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 26-28"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 38-44","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 38-44"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 48-12","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 48-12"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 8-16","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 8-16"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 32-40","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 32-40"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 52-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 52-32"}]},{"heading":"Why it matters","paragraphs":["The outcome defines the standard for civil liability under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. It determines whether debt collectors face strict liability for legal errors. It shapes the risk profile for legal professionals advising clients on debt collection. It clarifies the boundary between permissible legal interpretation and actionable misconduct."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 23, lines 4-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 23, lines 4-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 20-24","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 20-24"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 33, lines 20-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 33, lines 20-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 48-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 48-26"}]},{"heading":"What happens next","paragraphs":["This article currently covers the argument record. Use the official docket link for later case activity."],"sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 8-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 8-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 4, lines 26-34","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 4, lines 26-34"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 5, lines 22-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 5, lines 22-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 57, lines 28-30","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 57, lines 28-30"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 6, lines 14-52","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 6, lines 14-52"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 16-18","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 16-18"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 34-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 34-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 7, lines 42-44","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 7, lines 42-44"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 26-28","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 26-28"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 38-44","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 38-44"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 48-12","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 48-12"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 8, lines 8-16","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 8, lines 8-16"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 32-40","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 32-40"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 9, lines 52-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 9, lines 52-32"}]}],"slug":"2009-08-1200-jerman-v-carlisle-mcnellie-rini-kramer-ulrich-lpa","term":"2009","title":"Does a debt collector's good-faith legal error violate the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act?","title_sources":[{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 23, lines 4-32","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 23, lines 4-32"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 3, lines 20-24","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 3, lines 20-24"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 33, lines 20-36","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 33, lines 20-36"},{"evidence_type":"Transcript","label":"Official Supreme Court Transcript — file page 56, lines 48-26","official_url":"https://www.supremecourt.gov/pdfs/transcripts/2009/08-1200.pdf","page_label":"file page 56, lines 48-26"}],"topics":[],"undated_disposition_date_fallback":null,"updated_at":"2026-09-05T03:22:24Z"}